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Original: 7/21/2008 12:38 PM
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Monday, July 21, 2008

Masturbation is a sin

 
Masturbation is a perversion of God's plan for sexual desire and is therefore a sin

This is a very important topic that requires a thought-out, biblically-based answer.  And that is what I hope to provide in this essay, as well as some advice for men and women struggling with sexual temptation.

The answer to this question typically given by Christian leaders is, "One cannot masturbate without lusting, and since lust is a sin, masturbation is a sin.  Of course, we can't say this with certainty, since the Bible doesn't directly touch on the subject."

There are two problems with this: First, this argument assumes that one must lust while masturbating.  Technically, someone could masturbate without looking at pornography or fantasizing.  Consequently, I had one fellow tell me that young men should masturbate about once a week, since by then their desire has built up enough that it is easy to masturbate simply by handling themselves, and without fantasizing.

Second, whether something is "explicitly" mentioned in scripture is irrelevant.  Pornography isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture.  Abortion isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture.  Sports aren't explicitly mentioned in scripture.  The trinity isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture.  Can we say, then, that the Bible has nothing to say about these topics?  No.  The Westminster Confession of Faith gets it right when it says the following:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture ... (Chapter 1, Part VI)

That last clause is absolutely correct.  We may deduce truths from scripture in order to learn what scripture says about a topic.  A perfect example is the trinity.  Nowhere in scripture do we read anything like B.B. Warfield's famous summary of the doctrine of the trinity: "There is one God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three co-eternal, co-equal Persons, the same substance but distinct in subsistence."  Rather, we read verses in which the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are referred to as God or are placed on the same level as one another.  Since each person is referred to as God, we can use logic to conclude that each member is God.  (For a more comprehensive defense of the trinity, visit here.)

We can use the same principle of logic (deduction) to conclude that masturbation is a sin, based on several premises we draw from scripture.

First, let us all admit that the purpose of masturbation is to fulfill sexual desire.  But is this how God wants sexual desire to be expressed?  We need to look at God's purpose behind sex. 

In Genesis 2 God says to Adam, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”  After God creates Eve, we read, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." 

Sex is the means by which a husband and wife become one flesh.  It is intended to be the ultimate expression of physical intimacy---an act that says, beyond everything else, "I love you and trust you enough to share the most private parts of my body with you."  This is why the wedding night is called the "consummation" of a couple.  To consummate literally means "the act of bringing something to completion or fruition."  Sexual intercourse---the act of becoming "one flesh"---between a husband and wife on the wedding night, therefore, is the pinnacle or apex of the lover's union with another!  If that doesn't tell you how precious and purposeful sex is in the eyes of God, then I don't know what will.  The point is this: God created sex for intimacy.

Furthermore, sex is an act that leaves us vulnerable.  That is why nakedness is shameful before those outside our family.  That is why molestation and rape leaves us feeling used.  Sex belongs inside the covenant of marriage simply because marriage ensures trust.  God created us as sexual beings, and that sexuality is meant to be expressed only within the context of marriage.  This is further supported by 1 Cor. 7:2-5.

Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

We see then, that with regards to sexual activity we do not have authority over our bodies---it belongs to another.  When we need sexual fulfillment, we must go to our spouse.  In other words, there is simply no room given for the concept of "solo sex" or "auto-eroticism."  Sexual desire must be fulfilled only in the context of an intimate relationship.  This is impossible to do by oneself.  Since masturbation attempts to fulfill sexual desire by oneself, it breaks away from God's intended context for sexual activity (marriage).  Rather than making another person the reference point for intimacy, oneself becomes the reference point.*  Masturbation focuses on satisfying oneself through oneself, whereas God intended for us to be sexually satisfied through sharing.  Since masturbation fails to satisfy sexual desire in accordance with God's purpose for sexual desire, we can say that masturbation is a perversion of God's plan for sex.  Truly, then, masturbation is nothing more than the selfish manipulation of the genitals.  Not surprisingly, Paul says the following:

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

The key phrase is, "you are not your own."  Like I just explained, we do not have authority over our bodies in with regards to sex.  If we are married, the spouse has authority.  If we are single, the Lord alone has authority.  And His intention is that you do not excite desires that you are not able to fulfill as a single. 
In Song of Solomon, virgins are twice commanded, "Do not stir up or awaken love until it pleases" (2:7, 8:4).  In this verse, "love" refers to any kind of romantic or sexual desire.  Those who are wise will take heed, lest they be led down a miserable path---one that many Christians have walked on for far too long.

Having said all of that, those who take sin seriously should be moved to action.  That is what I intend to deal with in the next post.

*This is exactly analogous to those who embrace themselves as the authority when seeking knowledge: rather than embracing an epistemological relationship with Yahweh (Prov. 1:7), most people believe that they determine truth for themselves by being a law unto themselves (autonomy).  So whether in autonomous human reasoning or in masturbation, the reference point becomes oneself and not another.  (Is anyone impressed that I managed to drag epistemology into this?)



As an addendum, some might benefit from a formal argument of what I presented above:

Premise 1: God designed sex to fulfill the desire for intimacy.
Premise 2: The desire for intimacy cannot be fulfilled alone.
Premise 3: Masturbation attempts to fulfill the desire for intimacy alone.
Conclusion: Masturbation perverts God's intention for sexual desire.

The form of this argument is valid, so if you disagree with me then you will need to disagree with one or more of these premises.
 Posted 7/21/2008 12:38 PM - 250 Views - 12 eProps - 25 comments

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Posted 7/21/2008 11:32 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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Funny, i thought of writing an article on this.
i have to say though- i disagree with you to a degree.

I will not say outright that masturbation is a sin. I think that is wrong to label it that and to do so has to twist principals of Gods word into legalism such as the arguments found in petty speech over "you cannot eat that food it was worshipped to an idol".

Masturbation is not inheritantly a selfish manipulation of the genitals - just like eating is not inheritantly gluttony.

God created sex, but masturbation is not "sexuality". Sexuality can be our gender, or it can be the sexual relationship between a man and a woman. There are some that do "masturbation" with their partner/spouse simply by climaxing through their own touch but i would still consider that apart of sexuality within sex in marriage because your parter is still participating simply in different means - with their scent, with their gaze, by showing their approval- by sharing the moment of intimacy together.

Here is a thought, not so much a solid argument, but a thought since i know you wont accept hypothetical: But. i would like someone to find one male (because it is common for women to have never thought of trying it) that has been able to completely deny themselves and conquer the "sin". Now- i know everyone knows some guy that went some extended period of time, yada yada yada. But.... masturbation the "forbidden sin" seems to be almost inconquerable. A liar can become an honest man, a theif a giver. Yet when it comes to the way we were created with these natural homormal fluxuations and normal bodily releases- some try to lumped it in with sin. Why are we given victory over sin, yet seeming not 'over this sin?'

Also- yes we have established that it is possible to do it without lusting. If you dont believe it, well ask some women on their period because it happens to be one of the NATURAL ways to release endorphins in the body to stop the pain of severe cramping. Pretty hard to lust under those mental capacities.

So what your saying is, if someone is married and they are living in a very active sexually fulfilling relationship with their spouse and their spouse is gone on a trip, or dies- that masturbation for them is then a sin? So you are standing in the place of judgment against a widower (man or woman) and telling them that their body's natural desires (that are God created and God given )- if they masturbate they are sinning?
.... Have you ever thought to consider it a gift of grace that has potential to be used correctly or used excessively such a most sins - ie gluttony. eating is a gift, gluttony is abuse of the gift. Sexual desire is a gift - lust is the abuse of the gift. Sex in a marriage is intended not to be turned off after being turned on and if that precious marriage is cut short or torn apart you would rather say that person is sinning instead of praising God for an ability of mercy so that they dont act on that desire and then fornincate or commit adultery outside of that?

masturbation is not meant to be tied up with sex - that is why it is seperate and most sexual acts outside of marriage must include 2 (or more) people. Fornication: 2 people. Adultery: 2 people. Orgies: multiple people: Prostitution: 2+ people.

Now i do think that masturbation can be misused- either in excess which probably is tied in with a lust problem, or through abusing it for example when you actually try to recreate sex (beyond simple masturbation) and your using objects designed after another person for example then on a personal level through my own convictions i think that is trying to pevert sex by trying to recreate what is given and achieved though two people. Because at that point you are trying to achieve the feelings and responses created and attained through Gods design of bringing two people together. Now you might take this and run with it and say that masturbation itself is trying to recreate sex.
And i disagree...masturbation and sex is like trying to say that an apple is equal to an apple pie. Masturbation cannot give you the same climatic level reached with your spouse. Masturbation cannot bring intimacy. Masturbation is personal and private and not something you 'give'.

Yes we all get a form of "pleasure" from it. A mild form in comparision to the great riches of a blessed marriage. But to say because one receives pleasure from something its a sin...is taking things way left field. well then why are you restricting pleasure from the genitals as sin? And pleasure from other 'self' activites as ok? And how can you "manipulate" your genitals through masturbation? manipulation implies contortion - yet it seems to be achieved quite easily and in a way that is functionable.

No one is stealing something from their spouse by masturbating- (in an appropriate way) and its not being selfish. If that were so then everytime you ate a piece of chocolate cate you were being selfish for not sharing that yummy piece with me.

I look at is as everytime i say "no" to my body, then its an opportunity to practice denying my flesh. Everytime i say "yes" then if i dont get all lustful or abuse it then its a gift of grace to make it through normal hormones.

It can be a gift to a widow so as to control her own body and not be vulnerable to opportunities. It is a gift for some teenagers and young adults to actually control their bodies. Sometimes when suppressed the ability to sin with it or lust with it is actually greater.

Also, i really do think you misused your bible verses.
you said , " Key phrase- you are not your own" , in regard to not having authority over our bodies in regards to sex" - well sure sex, yes if were married in some context, but also if your wife is sick you have authority over her body to rebuke it. its not JUST talking about sexual "authority" but also the principle is you dont have a right to "withhold" for the use of sin (through anger or malice or manipulation) your body from your spouse.
And your Song of Solomon verse: that does not apply to masturbation. Depending on what translation of SOS you read in one translation that is King solomon addressing the female attendents to not push the woman he is trying to woo to fall in love with him faster ( the version where Solomon is the outsider the the Shullumaites love is for the shepherd a Christ type." So i suggest a deeper study on the issue rather that our western vomit. Also "love" is not masturbation. You dont awaken love by masturbation. You can awaken it by not guarding your heart, or prematurely rushing into sex, etc. And if i simply just take it without understanding, if i said "wait until love pleases" then well... wouldnt that be when my hormones come knocking cause it sure would "please" it them!

Bottom line, dont confuse sex and masturbation.
Do your best to master it if you need to, Dont let it run your life, but also thank God for the ability to keep our hormones and natural desires in check and under control until we are given in the glorious dance of love. Maybe you should take a position of grace instead of messing people up with a position of legalism. I suggest reading Dr. Dobsons view, as it was quite insightful if you havent and examine your own experiences in line with scripture. Maybe there is a reason its 'explicitly' left out. There are "regular" sins, and then there are our personal conscience sins- maybe its wrong for me to go to a movie theather and not for you? God deals with us personally as well.....
Posted 7/22/2008 2:24 AM by Lara_Croft007 - reply

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God created sex, but masturbation is not "sexuality".

Uhhhhh......*what*?

Sexuality can be our gender, or it can be the sexual relationship between a man and a woman.

The Greek word translated "fornication" in the New Testament is porneia, which is defined thusly by Thayer:

1) illicit sexual intercourse

1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mar_10:11,Mar_10:12

2) metaphorically the worship of idols

2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

If sexuality is simply "between a man and a woman", what about bestiality or (as you mention later in your comment) sex toys such as vibrators?  In case you want to latch on to the word "intercourse", the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia explains under its definition of "Fornication", "Every form of unchastity is included in the term 'fornication.'"  It seems clear to me that "fornication" is an umbrella term for all forms of perversion (literally, "a diverting from the true intent or object" -Webster) from God's established sexual norm- which, as Genesis and Jesus clearly state, is between a man and a woman.

i would like someone to find one male (because it is common for women to have never thought of trying it) that has been able to completely deny themselves and conquer the "sin".

a) Such men exist. Trust me.
b) The Westminster Confession of Faith which Keith quoted says this in its chapter "On Sanctification":
I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,[1] by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them:[2] the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,[3] and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified;[4] and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,[5] to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.[6]
II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]
c) I'm not saying this is the case for EVERY guy who struggles with masturbation and I hate to play pop psychologist, but I can't help but wonder how much our anthropocentric brand of Christianity ("Western vomit", as you so elegantly described it) is responsible for this sort of mentality.  After all, if God's all about your happiness, why bother going through all the effort of quitting something that's fun and pleasurable?  I have to wonder how much of this defeatist attitude towards masturbation would exist if more people preached like, say, Paul Washer.  And in terms of guys who HAVE surrendered themselves to Christ and still feel helpless in the face of masturbation, another contributing factor might be the absence of a clear teaching coming from any major preacher (in fact, I'm not even aware that anyone like Washer has ever preached specifically on this subject) regarding masturbation's sinfulness.  It could also be from a general lack of emphasis on being patient in overcoming your sinfulness- after all, Osteen preaches "your best life NOW", not "a continual and irreconcilable war".

So you are standing in the place of judgment against a widower (man or woman) and telling them that their body's natural desires (that are God created and God given )- if they masturbate they are sinning?
Sin must exposed, and cheap emotional appeals won't change that.

No one is stealing something from their spouse by masturbating- (in an appropriate way) and its not being selfish. If that were so then everytime you ate a piece of chocolate cate you were being selfish for not sharing that yummy piece with me.
This is argument is just flat-out weird.  You say comparing sex and masturbation is like apples and oranges, but you have no problem comparing masturbation and *chocolate cake*.

No one is stealing something from their spouse by masturbating- (in an appropriate way) and its not being selfish.

Stealing is taking someone else's property, which 1 Corinthians 7 makes clear is the spouse's body.  And on that topic...

Also, i really do think you misused your bible verses.
you said , " Key phrase- you are not your own" , in regard to not having authority over our bodies in regards to sex" - well sure sex, yes if were married in some context, but also if your wife is sick you have authority over her body to rebuke it. its not JUST talking about sexual "authority" but also the principle is you dont have a right to "withhold" for the use of sin (through anger or malice or manipulation) your body from your spouse.

...and you say KEITH misused the text? :-S   Where on earth do you get this..rebuking...disease thing from 1 Corinthians 7?  And even if what you're saying is true, the point is, there's a principle that your sexual organs are the property of your spouse for the purpose of giving them pleasure, sealing the covenant etc. and using them for your own gratification instead of theirs constitutes stealing.  This is just a logical deduction from the facts at hand.

In Christ, and for the gospel of the kingdom,
Brett

Posted 7/22/2008 12:39 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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Hi, thanks for your comments.

I was not referring to scenarios in which your spouse is involved.

Now- i know everyone knows some guy that went some extended period of time, yada yada yada. But.... masturbation the "forbidden sin" seems to be almost inconquerable.

Well, actually, I know several people who are fighting that battle and living victoriously in Christ. It is not impossible by any means. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Phil. 4:13). Paul makes it incredibly clear in 1 Cor. 9 that we can achieve mastery over the flesh. He also says in 2 Cor. 12:9, "my grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." And does not the Spirit grant self-control? It saddens me to read that you think that some sins are "unconquerable." Have you not read Romans 8? "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us."

So what your saying is, if someone is married and they are living in a very active sexually fulfilling relationship with their spouse and their spouse is gone on a trip, or dies- that masturbation for them is then a sin?

Yes, I'm saying that. The reason they were sexually fulfilled is because they were in a marital relationship. There is no authentic sexual fulfillment outside of marriage because sexual fulfillment is inherently relational and intimate, and there is no relational or intimate element to masturbation.

If you want to disagree with my argument then you will have to disagree with one of my premises. Let me go through it again:

p1: God created sex for intimacy, therefore we desire sex because we desire intimacy.
p2: The desire for intimacy cannot be fulfilled alone.
p3: Masturbation attempts to fulfill intimacy alone.
c: Masturbation perverts God's intention for sexual desire.

Sexual desire is a gift - lust is the abuse of the gift.

Regardless of whether lust is involved, I think that people masturbate because they are trying to fulfill a spiritual need---a need that can only be fulfilled through relationship.

in regard to not having authority over our bodies in regards to sex" - well sure sex, yes if were married in some context, but also if your wife is sick you have authority over her body to rebuke it. its not JUST talking about sexual "authority" but also the principle is you dont have a right to "withhold" for the use of sin (through anger or malice or manipulation) your body from your spouse.

I'm not really following your argument, or I don't see how it negates mine.

And your Song of Solomon verse: that does not apply to masturbation.

It applies to sexual desire, therefore it applies to masturbation.

You dont awaken love by masturbation.

"Love" is a term for desire in Song of Solomon, so, yes, when you excite sexual desires before marriage you are going to struggle with sexual sin.

Maybe you should take a position of grace instead of messing people up with a position of legalism.

Do you even know what legalism is? Legalism holds that one can attain righteousness through obedience to the law. No where in any of my writings have I ever suggested that that is possible.

The fact that we as Christians can live victoriously in Christ and find our intimacy in a relationship with Him alone is proof that those who maintaining self-control are leading lives of GRACE. Grace leads to freedom from sin, you know...

Maybe there is a reason its 'explicitly' left out. There are "regular" sins, and then there are our personal conscience sins- maybe its wrong for me to go to a movie theather and not for you?</i.

The "explicit" argument means nothing, as I pointed out at the beginning of my post. Regarding the movie theatre---that requires wisdom concerning whether theatres are worldly. You can't deduce from scripture the statement "theatres are worldly." Maybe theatres with certain movies and certain people are worldy, but that would have be to determined on an individual basis. But this isn't the case with masturbation---it is always sin because it always defies God's intention for sexual activity. No exceptions. If sex was intended for intimacy and intimacy was intended for relationships then my argument is sound.
Posted 7/22/2008 12:53 PM by razzendahcuben - reply

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This is quite possibly the creepiest blog post + comment section I've ever seen.
Posted 7/22/2008 3:03 PM by freedomphilosophy - reply

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out of curiosity , have you read dr. dobsons position? not because he is the end all authority, but because he has a graceful argument that deals with real cases of the struggle and consequences of what occurs.

and thank you "razz" for having a much more kind response, than lets say, some others. Your premise list actually helped clear the water in your position-

I still think that you can pevert masturbation, or not.

i just have another question. If your married and you masturbate and you think of your spouse, or if your spouse died and you do it and masturbate by thinking of them, why do you believe that is sin? -especially if the spouse is ok with it. Are they 'lusting'? are they peverting what they have together? I say no.
Both cases firmly agree that you cannot achieve in sexual intercouse what is 'achieved' in masturbation. And i would argue that both cases are not trying to achieve any type of fulfillment in replace of sexual intercourse.
if a wife is married and her husband gone, and she "burns for desire" (loves) him and does it, i dont think she has sinned or peverted anything nor fornicated in any way. The line would be crossed perhaps if she was thinking of someone else (lust). Because i still think fornication involves another being- and we know that we can commit adultery in our hearts through love of idols and not God...
but. i guess if you want to use masturbation to recreate sex to fill some void we all know it wont work and then yeah, your probably handling the issue wrong. but if you know its not for that, nor can achieve that, and one maintains a healthy self controlled stance on the issue and actually benefits for even medical reasons at times and they are a good christian loving God in their walk then im not going to be the one that says "your sinning". I think God can handle that with them quite well
Posted 7/22/2008 4:54 PM by Lara_Croft007 - reply

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gc5yKbeNkq0

You couldn't make this up.

Posted 7/23/2008 2:15 AM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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======FreedomPhilosophy=======

This is quite possibly the creepiest blog post + comment section I've ever seen.

I don't know if I'd say "creepy," but yes it is an awkward topic. Nevertheless one that someone has to talk about.

The reason I wrote a post on this subject is because a lot of people find my blog by typing in things like "Is masturbation a sin?" in Google. The only reason my site comes up is because some guy used the phrase "mental masturbation" in a derogatory sense in an old post.

Yeah, so do you have any more reductios against Christianity you'd like to try?

=====LaraCroft007=====

Regarding your first question, I would still say "no" to that scenario because there is no intimacy involved---only a hypothetical intimacy, which is fake intimacy, as far as I can tell. Remember, God created sex so that man and woman can become one flesh---literally "together." Togetherness is intimacy, whereas masturbation is purely focused on oneself. The reference is always to oneself and not to sharing yourself with another.

I need to re-write parts of the article and make it more clear. Thanks for your input. Stop by again.

Keith

=====ProtestantWitness======

You couldn't make this up.

I refuse to watch that. :P
Posted 7/25/2008 6:53 PM by razzendahcuben - reply

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Whoa, Brett... I never even noticed your first comment! You must have posted it while I was responding to hers. (Looking at the time stamp, this appears to be the case.) Anyway, thanks for the thoughts... thanks for those Canadian thoughts... that was some pretty pwn quotage of the WCF. You are definitely better read that I am.
Posted 7/25/2008 6:57 PM by razzendahcuben - reply

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Did you see my last comment in the "The Fact That Evolution Is Wrong Has Nothing To Do With Science" blog post comment section...?
Posted 7/25/2008 10:45 PM by freedomphilosophy - reply

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@razzendahcuben - Hey, I had seen this post before but just now had a chance to read it through. The Bible does mention masterbation in at least one passage. Ezekiel 16:17 describes an adopted daughter who "prostituted herself" with male idols as an analogy for Israel's infidelity. Also, I would have liked to see you touch on masterbation as a tool to increase stamina so later, when engaged in intercourse with one's spouse, one can last long enough to help her reach climax. In that case, masterbation is a selfless act, basically practice, with the goal to better pleasure the spouse.

Posted 11/11/2008 8:15 PM by interstellarmachine - reply

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I don't believe for one second that masturbation helps one "increase stamina," and even if it did it wouldn't be worth sacrificing one's purity for. That's like saying that you should watch lots of porn before marriage, that way, on the wedding night, you can show her all the best positions. Sorry, friend, but it would appear that you have the wrong focus when it comes to sex.
Posted 11/12/2008 1:06 PM by razzendahcuben - reply

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Premise 1 strikes me as oversimplifying the desire for sex. Humans also desire sex for pleasure and procreation. There may be other reasons. Maybe it would make more sense to me if you stated it, "God designed sex to fulfill human desire for intimacy."

I am curious what your thoughts are on nocturnal emission as they relate to this discussion. (That's actually the main reason I posted.)

I don't intend to speak for Lara_Croft007, but I think she wasn't referring to legalism as a doctrine through which salvation is gained but more so as a strict adherence to the letter of the law over the spirit. For instance, if I think Jesus is wrong for healing someone on the Sabbath, I'm being legalistic. That does not mean that I am trying to earn salvation by being good enough, but that I have turned the Law into a heavy yoke. I'm not saying you're being legalistic. I just wanted to try and clear that up.

Although we certainly have a lot of control over how much we "stir up love," hormones do this to an extent anyway. I'm not saying that whenever we have desires, it grants us license to do as we please. However, I think it's worth noting that it is natural to feel this way. Before marriage, if we belong to the Lord alone (and not to any spouse), the stance that we cannot for that reason (that is, that we don't belong to ourselves) masturbate hinges upon whether or not it is wrong to begin with. Although the greatest expression and experience of that sexual desire is found in marriage, I think it is drawing too much of a conclusion from a positive statement about sex to rule out certain other things on that basis.

Also, something that I'm curious to hear your take on is a sexual encounter in a marriage where only one person is serviced (I thought for a while about how to put that; I hope that adequately conveys my thoughts). In your opinion, is that contrary to Scripture? I guess that goes back to the act of consummation. The first act of copulation between a man and a woman make them one flesh; after that, then what? Whatever they want to do consensually is fair game because it helps fulfill their intimacy? Procreation is a side effect? I guess I'm just thinking out loud here. [The two things I'm seeking verification/explanation on are 1) the ground rules for sex in a marriage and 2) where procreation comes into play.]

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts and time.
Posted 11/12/2008 5:13 PM by stuartandabby - reply

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Thanks for your comments Stuart... or Abby... or both? :)

Premise 1 strikes me as oversimplifying the desire for sex. Humans also desire sex for pleasure and procreation. There may be other reasons. Maybe it would make more sense to me if you stated it, "God designed sex to fulfill human desire for intimacy."

Yes, you're correct. I'll change that.

I didn't bring procreation into the question because since people can't procreate through masturbation---hence they must other motives. And that motive is a desire for intimacy.

I can't imagine that nocturnal emissions are ever sinful in and of themselves. If they are the result of lustful fantasies while dreaming then the problem is the dreams or whatever one is storing up in one's mind in previous days. What do you think?

For instance, if I think Jesus is wrong for healing someone on the Sabbath, I'm being legalistic

I see your point, but in that passage the pharisees problem is hypocrisy, not legalism. Legalism, at least in Reformation theology, is a soteriological term.

However, I think it's worth noting that it is natural to feel this way.

We could probably argue over what "natural" means, but I think we both agree that the proper response to this reality (of love beiung stirred up prematurely) is self-control, not the selfish use of our bodies.

Before marriage, if we belong to the Lord alone (and not to any spouse), the stance that we cannot for that reason (that is, that we don't belong to ourselves) masturbate hinges upon whether or not it is wrong to begin with.

It is definitely true that we belong to the Lord alone before marriage---powerful point. But I don't follow the rest of your argument. If our bodies are not our own, and belong to either the Lord or our spouse, wouldn't that mean that we shouldn't use our bodies to fulfill that which we can't fulfill apart from the Lord or our spouse (intimacy)?

In your opinion, is that contrary to Scripture?

Serviced... I think that's the term they used in Zoolander! (filthy movie, by the way, don't watch it) But, no, it is not contrary to scripture. To serve is a type of pleasure, a type of intimacy. In this case, both are experiencing pleasure and intimacy, I would think. Before birth control, I can imagine that if a husband needed his wife we would have to enjoy her through some means other than intercourse.

I agree with your thoughts about Adam and Eve.

I think inappropriate sexual acts would involve those that embarass, humiliate, or physically harm the husband or wife. That's very subjective, obviously.

At this point I can't think of a definite reason why God might have made the means of procreation the same as the means for attaining the deepest level of intimacy. Perhaps we could postulate that since families are intimate, the newest member of the family should result from previous acts of intimacy within the family. What do you think?
Posted 11/13/2008 10:54 AM by razzendahcuben - reply

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@razzendahcuben - "Sorry, friend, but it would appear that you have the wrong focus when it comes to sex." You know nothing about me and my focus. You present your post as if you are an expert and then, when someone consults for further commentary, and in this case an aspect which you have overlooked, you attack. Thanks alot "friend!"

Posted 11/23/2008 12:18 AM by interstellarmachine - reply

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You know nothing about me and my focus.

Whether I'm an expert is beside the point; your comments showed a blatant disregard for the points made in my post---I know that much!
Posted 11/23/2008 9:46 PM by razzendahcuben - reply

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Premise 3: Masturbation attempts to fulfill the desire for intimacy alone" may not apply. That premise is akin to saying "money is the root of all evil." Sure, money is a tool used for evil, and is often used as an idol, but it can also be used as a tool for good.  Same with masterbation? I don't know. . . you may or may not be married, you may or may not understand the importance of prolonging your climax for your wife. I think it is legalistic to forbid something that the Bible does not expressly address. Certainly, any selfishness is sin, but is the act the sin, or the motivation? Please re-read my first comment, I resonded specifically to the point that you thought masterbation was not mentioned in the Bible, and then I tried to help you flesh out a point that you missed.

Posted 11/24/2008 7:56 AM by interstellarmachine - reply

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Masturbation may be a "tool" for increasing sexual stamina (I disagree that it is, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion), but that doesn't have any effect on my argument. In other words, it doesn't falsify any of my premises, so the argument is still sound.

I think it is legalistic to forbid something that the Bible does not expressly address.

I specifically address this topic in the fourth paragraph of my post.
Posted 11/24/2008 8:45 PM by razzendahcuben - reply

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At the end of your post, you said to disagree with your argument, you must disagree with one of your premises. If you are asserting Premise 3 as universal, then there are grounds for disagreement. Of your premises, this is the weakest. You seem to pull this out of thin air in segment eight of your post. Should your premise 3 be understood as "Masturbation ALWAYS attempts to fulfill the desire for intimacy alone?" Do you think it NOT possible that this act can be executed with motive besides intimacy?

Posted 11/27/2008 11:50 PM by interstellarmachine - reply

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I have an extremely hard time believing that any person honestly masturbates with a non-sensual motive alone. Hence what you have presented sounds like a very desperate attempt to defend a very foolish practice and nothing more. Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. You can have the last word.
Posted 11/29/2008 2:08 AM by razzendahcuben - reply

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All I have to say is you are presenting a very experiential approach to what you are calling a Biblical position.
Posted 11/29/2008 2:46 PM by interstellarmachine - reply

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but if the bible doesn't touch up on it directly... then WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE?!?!?!?!?
Posted 8/5/2009 9:40 PM by nighttimedreamer - reply

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[Second, whether something is "explicitly" mentioned in scripture is irrelevant. Pornography isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture. Abortion isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture. Sports aren't explicitly mentioned in scripture. The trinity isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture.]

True, but it's still a matter of opinion about whether it's clearly implied in scripture. I say it isn't.

@nighttimedreamer - </[but if the bible doesn't touch up on it directly... then WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE?!?!?!?!?]

I agree. God mentions all of these different sexual sins in scripture. If masturbation is such an awful sin, why would God not mention it?

@Lara_Croft007 - 

Fantastic comment!

Posted 8/6/2009 12:00 AM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

> thank you. my point EXACTLY. Even though I don't do it.. why make teenage girls and boys think it is wrong to explore their new bodys?
Posted 8/6/2009 1:00 AM by nighttimedreamer - reply

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Nighttimedreamer and musterion99---Yes, the Bible does address masturbation.  And yes, according to the Bible it is wrong.  If you disagree then please show me which premise is false in the argument I presented.

Posted 10/7/2009 5:28 PM by razzendahcuben - reply


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